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War in the Middle East

Oct. 11, 2023, 10:03 a.m.
Posts: 12205
Joined: June 29, 2006

Huge news but not much talk about here.  I generally hate the topic and it tends to be incredibly polarizing, but how is it that Hamas still survives?  I have many criticisms of Israel, but shouldn't any chance of peace start with wiping these fuckers out?  We have had years to get people on the inside and dismantle them from within.  Other terrorist orgs have come and gone, but Hamas just keeps coming back.  

For every Israeli they killed another 10 Palestinians will die for this and surviving members of their families will join Hamas for revenge.  Israel doesn't have many choices at the moment, but this back and forth with wars is a feedback loop.

And then here at home there are Islamist scumbags celebrating the slaughter.

Oct. 11, 2023, 10:40 a.m.
Posts: 18740
Joined: Oct. 28, 2003

See:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank

Consider all the Truth and Reconciliation Canadian are now working through.   Same issue with Ruskies and Ukraine.

Oct. 11, 2023, 11:35 a.m.
Posts: 3063
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

The whole thing is a mess, sitting on a foundation of religious ideology and hate for "the other" Until the religious based hate stops the violence won't stop, it's a rabid dog chasing it's own tail - it's  not a rational situation. I think the only solution is to have a large occupying force from the UN move into the region to stabilize it, help rebuild Gaza, and run it long enough so that the average person can live a life of some normalcy in the hopes that the hate dissipates. The problem there is that Gaza economy is almost non-existent, largely due to the blockades by Israel and Egypt, so that needs to change as well. While the rebuilding of Gaza takes place, borders and land agreements need to be sorted out, including in the West Bank, and both sides need to find a way to co-exist. I don't think these two parties will be able to sort things out on their own and it's going to take significant international intervention to make it happen.

Oct. 11, 2023, 11:46 a.m.
Posts: 12205
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: syncro

The whole thing is a mess, sitting on a foundation of religious ideology and hate for "the other" Until the religious based hate stops the violence won't stop, it's a rabid dog chasing it's own tail - it's  not a rational situation. I think the only solution is to have a large occupying force from the UN move into the region to stabilize it, help rebuild Gaza, and run it long enough so that the average person can live a life of some normalcy in the hopes that the hate dissipates. The problem there is that Gaza economy is almost non-existent, largely due to the blockades by Israel and Egypt, so that needs to change as well. While the rebuilding of Gaza takes place, borders and land agreements need to be sorted out, including in the West Bank, and both sides need to find a way to co-exist. I don't think these two parties will be able to sort things out on their own and it's going to take significant international intervention to make it happen.

That is the only way forward I can think of as well.  Israel doesn't want to address their role in this mess and they pretend that they are merely protecting their sovereignty, and the Palestinians have nothing but anger and religious zealotry.  They are leaderless, highly religious, oppressed, and poor.  That is a powder keg.  I guess that answers my question as to why Hamas manages to endure.  Nothing changes there.

Oct. 11, 2023, noon
Posts: 12205
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: heckler

See:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank

Consider all the Truth and Reconciliation Canadian are now working through.   Same issue with Ruskies and Ukraine.

There are some strong similarities, but the one thing that makes Israel quite different is that the occupying force is also claiming they have the historical and ancient claim to the land.

Oct. 11, 2023, 7:26 p.m.
Posts: 18740
Joined: Oct. 28, 2003

Um…  see USSR?   See England, France and Spain on global land conquests?  The Crusaders?  Vikings?  

Oh. Humans.

Oct. 11, 2023, 7:29 p.m.
Posts: 15750
Joined: May 29, 2004

Posted by: heckler

Um…  see USSR?   See England, France   

Oh. Humans.

Underpants...the answer is underpants.

Oct. 11, 2023, 8:14 p.m.
Posts: 18740
Joined: Oct. 28, 2003

lol, obvs.

Oct. 11, 2023, 10:21 p.m.
Posts: 34032
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

Posted by: chupacabra

I guess that answers my question as to why Hamas manages to endure.  Nothing changes there.

A Hamas spokesperson said that no Israeli civilians were killed by Hamas during their invasion.  Just have to watch a minute of linked video.https://youtu.be/Egipqa0ZhUk?si=vJO9J6GPfG_UJ2oq

And the complete blockade of Gaza is going to be really bad for the people living there.

Oct. 12, 2023, 9:15 a.m.
Posts: 12205
Joined: June 29, 2006

The Hamas guy doesn't deny that they attacked, just that they didn't kill any civilians.  Sure bud.  They must have all killed themselves I guess?  I commend the reporter for calling out his bullshit but why even have this asshole on in the first place?

The blockade is going to be really bad.  Especially with Bibi in charge and eager to make people forget that he is a piece of shit.  This will justify the next decade of oppression of the Palestinians.  The circle of death.

Oct. 12, 2023, 1:11 p.m.
Posts: 13436
Joined: Jan. 27, 2003

If an Israeli settler shows up armed to a palestinian home, kicks out the rightful owners of the home and claims it for themselves can that settler really call themselves a civilian?

Oct. 12, 2023, 8:17 p.m.
Posts: 15750
Joined: May 29, 2004

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Oct. 12, 2023, 8:23 p.m.
Posts: 6279
Joined: April 10, 2005

Posted by: three-sheets

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

I could not agree more. It depends what news source you listen to. 

The bottom line (& the sad thing) is that average people and kids end up as the ones suffering.

Oct. 13, 2023, 7:14 a.m.
Posts: 13436
Joined: Jan. 27, 2003

Posted by: Stuminator

Posted by: three-sheets

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

I could not agree more. It depends what news source you listen to.

It obviously depends on what shade your skin is.

Everyone in the west is a fucking hypocrite. Nothing but sympathy for the Uyghurs because it's evil China but for those 2 million in the open-air concentration camp that is Gaza that Israel openly says they're gonna kill as many civilians of as possible everyone just fucking shrugs and does mental backflips to justify it somehow.

I'm so fucking disgusted. 500 palestinian children dead so far and nobody is calling it out for what it is because their occupiers aren't Asian communists.


 Last edited by: Fast-Orange on Oct. 13, 2023, 7:43 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
Oct. 13, 2023, 7:36 a.m.
Posts: 3063
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: Fast-Orange

It obviously depends on what shade your skin is. 

Everyone in the west is a fucking hypocrite. Nothing but sympathy for the Uyghurs who have infinitely more freedom than those 2 million in the open-air concentration camp that is Gaza but when Israelis openly say they're gonna kill as many civilians in gaza as possible everyone just fucking shrugs. 

I'm so fucking disgusted right now. 500 palestinian childreb dead so far.

Let's not forget that the average person on the street isn't informed and doesn't care enough to distinguish between the avg person in Gaza and Hamas. They also don't know the history of the region - and not just the past 100yrs, so they are unable to see the nuance that exists. It's  a binary argument, Israel vs the Arab world. Sometimes it helps to simplify an issue and sometimes it doesn't; this is one of those time where it doesn't. 

I see both sides of the equation, but to be honest I tend to slightly tip my hand to Israel as Hamas and other similar factions are focused on wiping out Israel and eliminating Jewish people simply because they're Jewish. The battle against radical religious theology is the hardest thing to do with, because you have people who are focused on their hate for the other as opposed to finding solutions. While Israel has palpable hate for Gaza, they are not hell bent on wiping Muslim people from the face of the earth. Some may see that difference as subltle, but it exists. Despite that, Israel has not done itself any favours with its incursions into previously held Palestinian territory. That's why I think it's going to take a global effort to sort this out, and Israel has to be willing to make some significant concessions in terms of the land they hold and how they operate.

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