NSBillet Talon Cranks

So in my experience I've really only heard of carbon cranks failing in a regular basis. Not really familiar with alloy cranks failing with any regularity. 

Is your experience different?

No doubt. 

I think they’re lovely but I wouldn’t buy anything with a mounting system that isn’t supported in the aftermarket. It’s my WTC rule - if Wolf Tooth Components doesn’t make a ring for it, it’s not on my list.

Same goes with the stunning cranks from White Industries.

Kitsbow was local to me and doing a really good job of injecting life into the area in Old Fort. It's really a shame they couldn't stay in business, but when you read the comments on their post about shutting down, it's clear to see why. People don't understand value.

A lot of people, mountain bikers included, don't seem to understand the 'buy once' philosophy. They'll complain about spending $200 for a pair of shorts, but gladly crank out $90 every season or two for something made overseas for 5% of the price and that doesn't last a season or two. I've probably spent thousands on apparel that lasted less than a season or two (Zoic, I'm looking at you), I would have gladly paid Kitsbow to have 3 pairs of shorts I could depend on as opposed to 10 I had to trash after a year or two. 

Sadly I got all my stuff from them mid-winter, so I have a few pairs of pants, shorts, and wool jerseys, but none of their warmer weather gear.

@Shinook, a subject dear to my heart, as someone who turns wrenches on bicycles for food, is how much we value one skill over another.

Clothing of course is a totally f***ed up example. Where the expectations of features/costs/quantity/turn-over consumers have dictates that the folks making much of it will be treated like shit. 

But, it is crazy how something that's welded or machined in North America is more easily justified, by more people, to carry the realistic cost associated with its production (say Industry Nine Hubs or Wolf Tooth pedals or these NSBillet cranks) but clothing is a "rip-off" as soon as a company tries to pay a living wage making a high-quality product. 

I didn't personally have the means to own some pieces from Kitsbow I would have loved to have had - particularly a fleece - but the Haskell shorts I have (that I reviewed) are still rad years later. It cost $30 to fix the pockets after my keys chewed them up, but they were absolutely worth fixing and I'm sure I'll have them for ages.

@Shinook - I'm a big proponent for buy once, cry once, but I feel like that approach doesn't resonate with most people when it comes to apparel, particularly biking gear that is subjected to all kinds of abrasion, weather, and usual wear and tear. Not to mention that fashions, cuts, and sizes of beer bellies tend to change in life. 

Personally I tend to buy cheap polyester tops and spend slightly more on quality (but still overseas manufactured) bottoms. Socks for skiing and biking is the only area that I tend to splurge on merino wool.

@PKMzeta, not disagreeing with you at all, but one thing I've noticed in conversations about clothing - and this is aside from any fashion aspect - is that most folks don't consider having it repaired.

Last year shooting the sh*t over some beers my friend was lamenting that his favourite Sombrio (original Sombrio) shorts had finally kicked the bucket and he was retiring them, but you know, they had a good run. 

What's wrong with them? There's a hole in the crotch you can see his drawers through, there's a hole in the pocket that keys can fall through, and two of the belt loops are blown. So, get them fixed? I think it was $30 for the local seamstress to sort him out. 

I don't own a sewing machine and don't have the reps that I'd be happy with the finished product if I did, so I probably spend $100-200 a year getting gear fixed. That includes getting sleeves cut off jackets to make vests, new pockets as I insist on loading mine with keys and tools, and of course, patching knees and crotches.

Thanks for the response.  Again, I'm not saying I'm right or there was anything wrong with your review (you certainly addressed the fact there is no performance advantage).  Please keep your reviews just like they are.  And I would never chime in with an unsolicited "it's a bad value" comment on a product like these cranks.

I was simply trying to discuss the negative reaction to them queried in the original comment and point out why I had somewhat of the same reaction and why, even though I arguably don't have much of a leg to stand on if I had to defend it in the context of my overall bike expenditures.  If I came across as saying others shouldn't want them or buy them, that was certainly not my intent.  I agree they're beautiful and you are correct that, as far as vanity purchases go, you could certainly do a lot, lot worse.  

And my secondary point, which probably wasn't well stated, is that when it comes to riding, we all have inconsistent or incompatible beliefs and actions - things we feel passionately about with respect to our riding experience that aren't necessarily consistent with our overall actions.  

And I think that's fine. For the vast majority of us that don't work in the industry, we're adults with "real jobs" and families riding bikes around in the woods for fun.  It's a hobby and outlet for self expression; not anything of real consequence.  But what is important is that we allow others their incongruent philosophies as well as realize we have plenty of our own.  (Although I think we can still have some gentle fun with, for example, people shifting electronically while running bad brakes and suspension).

Case in point, I have a ton of fun on the EXe, but will forever refer to my two other bikes as "real bikes" and the EXe as an "ebike."  I think the world would probably be better off without ebikes, and passively adopting the class 1 category for recreational off road cycling (way too much power outside of winch-and-plummet riding) is going to go down as the biggest advocacy misstep of the last few decades.  But the cat's out of the bag, or so I tell myself, and I'm not going to miss out on the additional fun.  But I don't like electronic shifting on principle, because mechanical works just fine and electronic doesn't give me anything I want in exchange for the additional complexity.   It doesn't even make any sense inside my own head . . .

@DWM, at any price level, for most of us, it's riding expensive toys in the forest for fun, so certainly, there's no right or wrong way to feel about the value of any given component. At the same time it's quite remarkable how angry/angsty folks get about the price of stuff they don't really need. I mean, they don't need it to have fun, and they also don't need it to ride trail X or feature Y. 

It would never happen, but I'd love to see Shimano take one of the many former pros with a great personality who are now hustling to make monies other ways in mountain biking and put them on the payroll to shred Deore M5130. Get SR Suntour on board with a Voro shock (you know what's more "coil-like" than even the most expensive air shock?) and an Aion 36, put it all on a budget-friendlier full suspension frame and go shred the sh*t out of it. 

Not saying that PUSH shocks, Ohlins forks, and NSBillet Talon cranks aren't all wonderful. But outside of the world of pedal-assisted-motoring and motor-assisted-pedaling, talent and effort are still the great equalizers. 

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e-MTBs make me sad. I'm not good at explaining it - in person or in writing - so I generally avoid the topic, especially on NSMB. I already said too much.

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Wireless shifting is a tough one for me. As someone who generally reviews more budget-friendly bikes, it's a nice treat to be writing about something that's cut uniquely and rides interestingly like the We Are One Arrival. The Ultimate suspension is nice, though again not necessary, and I love having the Hydra hub because I notice a difference in how dynamic my riding is with really fast engagement. 

For as well as it works (AXS or T-Type both shift excellently), I'm also glad that I'm not at any risk of having to write about wireless shifting on the bikes I normally test. I don't really like to test things I'd never own and where I could certainly see myself owning an Arrival, it would certainly be running a cable-actuated drivetrain and dropper.

There are two kinds of e-bikes as I see it:

- E-Bikes (commuter, cargo, one-less-car e-bikes)

- Motor-sport e-bikes (e-mtb, e-road, e-tc.)

I can't in good faith claim that e-mtb's are motorcycles, or even mopeds, without becoming a linguistic deconstructionist. 

But If I say something like "nice e-mtb, but motor-sport ain't for me!" it'll ruffle some feathers, but is too literally accurate for much of a rebuttal. I hope it comes across more cheeky than preachy...

And I totally sympathize with the sadness you feel towards motor-sport e-bikes. There's something magical about being the sole source of power, you either can or you can't. It's the difference between going for a ride vs. taking a ride on... or something... hard to put into words indeed.

No response necessary - I respect you not wanting to get into the weeds on this here. Just wanted to throw my $.02 in the wishing well.

That sentence clearly says there are other reasons to not like emts, and that's also implicit in the meaning of red herring.

I'll say this and then shut up. 

I made an offhand mention of an emtb in discussing why people might be negative towards these cranks and how, for me, that negativity might not be very rational.  And that spurned a big debate on emtb's rather than these gorgeous cranks.

I think the real problem is that we're all still getting triggered by emtb's.  I was certainly overly defensive of the environmental impact.

emtb's have the potential to have a hugely negative impact on our sport over the next decade or two as they become more and more prevalent.  But for better or worse, they are part of the mountain biking world and they are not going away.  Land managers barely have the resources to perform basic tasks, much less police emtbs, which are only going to get more and more incognito.  

People have to move off the opposing poles of emtbs are just like real bikes and won't change anything (pure fantasy) and outright dismissal and denial of emtbs as motorcycles.  I'd argue that just like we all have a duty to pick up a tool and help with our local trails, we also have a duty to engage on the emtb front and try to make sure the impact to riding culture and etiquette is as minimal as possible.

And I think that's the real danger.  I love me some bike park, but, for me, the park mindset and experience lacks soul to some degree.  I wouldn't want it to be the core of my riding.  And it's awfully easy to let an emtb push your normal trail mindset towards a bike park mindset.

We need the old guard that has been riding and working and advocating for a long time to engage with people on emtb's, and especially those that don't have a long history on real bikes.  I'd argue that's the appropriate reaction of someone who deeply loves our sport and appreciates the magic of riding real bikes.  Not creating division that's going to hurt our sport.

For example, I led the effort to create our main local trail system. It's fairly rolling (but rocky) terrain.  We've been advocating for locals to get the mid-powered emtbs, as we believe those are more appropriate for our trail system and do not turn some of our more xc, multi-use trails into high-speed, downhill trails to nearly the same extent as full powered emtbs.  And we've had a lot of success with that.

In the podcast episode they were saying that they wanted to do more in house machining too, so from what I understood, it could/would be aluminium hubs.

He was talking about working with i9 so who knows.

Dustin was mentioning a whole different kind of process no one has done before...

I wonder if WAO would do a forged carbon. Someone tried to launch some forged carbon cranks back in 2016 but didn't get enough momentum. I almost bought a pair but didn't pull the trigger. 

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/forged-carbon-bicycle-crankset-and-stems-bike#/

With the pressing process they could machine more complex metal inserts that key into the crank.

All the carbon crank issues I’ve experienced have been either pedal thread inserts or the axle inserts debonding from the carbon.

Looking about how brands are doing carbon bike frames now, I wonder about having these interface points mechanically tightened into place (like suspension hardware) instead of bonded. 

No glue to debond and then as an added benefit the threaded/splined interfaces would be replaceable if damaged - as would the carbon arms themselves. 

Just strikes me as both something other brands haven’t tried and also a very We Are One way of doing things.

Cheers. I was having this same conversation with a friend the other day and I think it comes down to whether you're short crank certain or short crank curious. 

He's short crank certain. Hasn't tried them yet, but 155mm cranks are going to be experience-changing for him, and he has the means, so it's now just a question of silver or pewter Talon cranks. They both look brilliant today, depending on your take on patina, I think silver is the long-term aesthetic winner. 

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But, if he were short-crank curious, even having Talon-means, I can make a strong argument to start with the Canfields (if they're in stock when you make your decision). Cranks are actually a surprisingly expensive hit to any product managers budget, especially on lower-price point bikes, and kids bikes, even fairly nice ones, tend to come with shit-cranks. 

If you hate the short crank experience, you can do a friend (or stranger) a favour by recouping some of your costs and getting their grom sorted with cranks that don't suck. 

If you love the short crank experience, and you really want a pair of Talons, you can do a friend (or stranger) a favour by recouping some of your costs and getting their grom sorted with cranks that don't suck. 

Either way, the garbage was already created and shipped on the kid's MTB, you're helping ensure the parents don't double down by buying more garbage. WIN-WIN!